Finally some straight talk...

From Marc Maron and Sam Seder.

No limit Rants and Raves-Open thread

Craigslist instituted a 5 posting limit across the board today. With that final nail and the unethical flaggers, I think it's safe to say at this point what used to be a vibrant often foul, sometimes golden stream of collective consciousness is dead.

Oh well.

Hey it's an open thread ya'll.

It's the TGIF edition.


*We are coming up to the last 100 days of the Bush/Cheney era. Check the clock on the right for the exact moment. I wouldn't encourage you to drug yourself enough to the sleep through the finale, but I'd understand.


Mr Bold 6:21 pm.

Tonight's Featured Artists-Nirvana

Here they are doing "Smells Like Teen Spirit."

Did you know?

Did you know that Sarah Palin thinks humans and dinosaurs coexisted? That's right. She thinks the Flintstones was a cartoon portraying some time in the distant past.

You should ask yourself, "Do I know anyone I would consider smart who thinks dinosaurs and humans coexisted?"

Me neither. And I bet most of the Republicans who argue with you don't either.

Thursday open thread.

Looks like "At My Desk" is reading on "Boldly Liberal". This is a open post to say anything you want here. Chatbox will only post small comments, so if you have more to say do it here. Who you voting for "At My Desk"?

Tonight's Featured Artists-The Edgar Winter Group

Here they are doing "Free Ride" live.

Post debate reaction-

Draw with edge for Obama.

McCain repeated the same points he made in the first debate. It's a short script he has in his head it seems. I haven't heard how McCain expects to pay for the promises he's making.

Obama stood his ground. He let some McCain zingers go by without response. But then just about everything out of McCain was a zinger.

#7

Retired navy chief. I know both express support for Israel, if Iran attacks would you wait for approval from the sec council before moving?

JM-We obviously would not wait for the UN. Both Russia and China would pose significant obstacles. The Iranians are posing a threat. It's not just Israel but entire mid east. The tensions would be ratcheted up. Calls your country a stinking corpse. BO wants to sit down with them. If we join with our allies in posing tough sanctions to modify their behavior. And join a league of democracies. You know what it's like to serve.

BO-We honor your service. We cannot allow Iran to get a nuclear weapon. We will never take military options off the table. And we will never provide veto power to the UN. But we must use all the tools to prevent that senario. If we can work diplomatically. right now Iran imports gas even though they have oil. If we can stop gas going into there that would stop their economy. We need to make clear that if they don't change their behavior there are consequences. If they change it, then they can rejoin the community of nations. Not talking has created a nuclear korea.

Last question.

What don't you know and will you learn it?

BO-My wife could give you long list and most time I'd ask her. One of things we know about the Presidency is the challenges we don't expect. Here is what I do know. I know I wouldn't be standing here if it wasn't for this country giving me my opportunity. I come from modest means. My mom collected food stamps. Despite that i was able to succeed and that is true for Michelle. And the question is are we going to pass on that American dream to our children. The dream has diminished. People dont' have the money to go to college. We can't do the same thing we've done for 8 years and expect something different.

JM-I think what I don't know is what all of us don't know. What I don't know is what the unexpected will be. I know what it's like in dark times and what it's like to keep on fighting through dark times. I know what it's like to have your comrades reach out and pick you up and put you back into the fight. I believe in this country. It's been my great honor to serve it. And I'm asking for another opportunity. Steady hand at the tiller.

#6

should the US respect pakistani sovereignity and follow al qaeda?

BO-we have a difficult situation in Pakistan. We had bad judgement by going into Iraq. Ultimately OBL escaped. They are now raiding. Destabilizing the situation. That's why I think it's important to reverse course. they are plotting to kill americans right now. Part of the reason I think to end the war in Iraq is to put more troops in Afghanistan and pressure Pakistan. I propose to encourage democracy in Pakistan and expand our aid to that country to increase cooperation. If we have al qaeda in our sights, and Pakistan won't act. We have to act.

JM-My hero is a guy named Teddy Roosevelt. BO wants to talk loudly. He has announced he wants to attack Pakistan. When you announce your going to launch an attack in pakistan it turns them against.

We drove out Russia Afghanistan and we left. Taliban moved in. The borders are being held by those tribes and taliban has safe haven. We need to help Pakistan go into Waziristan to get them to turn against the cruel taliban.

BO-look I want to be clear. No one called for invasion of pakistan. What I said was the same thing I said here. If Pakistan won't take OBL out we should. They are threatening to kill more Americans. Now JM wants to paint me as green behind the ears. He sang Bomb bomb bomb Iran. Next up Baghdad. He doesn't speak softly. The popular opinion soured in Pakistan because we were not promoting democracy. These are policies that undermine our war on terrorism.

JM-not true. I have supported those efforts and i have opposed those that I didn't think so. I was joking with an old veteran about Iran. I know how to handle these crisis. I'll get OBL my friends. And I know how to do it. but I'm not going to telegraph my punches [if you know it you better share it.]

tb-the Sr. british cmdr said we are failing in Afghanistan. We need an acceptable dictator. How do you reorganize afghan strategy?

BO-We withdraw our troops from Iraq responsibly. McKiernan in Afghanist is desperate for help. We will have to work with the Karzai gov't. We want a democracy and it has to be responsible.

JM-Petraeus just took over the whole area. BO is correct on some things. We have to expand our presence there. We have to have the same strategy that we used in Iraq that BO won't even admit he was wrong about. So I have confidence that Petraeus will again succeed.

TB-How can we apply pressure on Russia?

JM we're not going to have a cold war in Russia. But they're behavior is outside of the lines of acceptable behavior. I saw Putin's eyes. i saw KGB. he has oppressed the liberties most nations in that class don't. We got to advocate for Ukranian membership in NATO. We got to show them that this naked aggression in Georgia will not be tolerated. The russkies must understand these kind of activities is unacceptable.

BO-The resurgence of Russia is a central issue in next presidency. We can't just provide moral support. We've also got to provide them with financial and concrete assistance to rebuild they're economies. We also got to see around the corners and anticipate these problems. I wrote in April that the situation in Georgia was unsustainable. Part of the job of the next cmder in chief is to anticipate. We tend to be reactive. Energy is going to be key with dealing with Russia. If we reduce our oil demand they earn less petrodollars.

TB-yes or now is Russia an evil empire.

BO-they're not the old russia but they are doing some evil things.

JM-maybe. Energy is going to be a big factor. That's a reason why it's in our interest. They got to understand they are facing a firm America.

#5

How will our economic stress affect our nation's ability to act as a peace maker in the world?

JM-well strong nations have to have a strong economy. We heard about a lot of criticism about America's foreign policy. America is a force for good. we shed our blood in defense of others. The challenge is to know when America can beneficially effect an outcome. That question can only be answered by those with experience and judgement when it can prevent genocide. Going back to our marines in lebanon. my judgement is something demonstrated in my record.

BO-Well JM suggested that I don't understand. It's true I don't understand how we could invade Iraq when OBL is in Afghanistan. JM suggested it would be quick and easy. That was the wrong judgement. On of things with Iraq is that it has put an enormous strain on our troops and our budgets. We spend close to 700 billion there and over a trillion if you follow McCain. Iraq has a surplus. And McCain hasn't explained how he is going to pay for anything he is proposing. The strain that has put on our alliances and it has constrained us to act on somehting like Darfur. That's going to change when I'm prez.

TB-let's establish the obama doctrine and mccain doctrine. Take the congo or rwanda. What is the conditions for use of force?



BO-If we could have stopped rwanda surely if we had the ability that is something to consider and act. If ethnic cleansing is going on and we are standing idly by. That has to be a part of our interest. But we will not be able to be everywhere at the same time.

JM-let me follow up my friends. If we would have done what Obama would have done in Iraq, we would have withdrawn and al qaeda would have come back in Iran would be stronger. I will bring our troops home with honor. We must do what we can to prevent but we must do what we can do to benefit the situation. In lebanon I stood up to Reagan [you're really freaking old] and asked how could we beneficially affect this situation.

I understand we have to say never again to rwanda. but we should leave and make the situation worse

#4b

Ingrid Jackson-"We saw that Congress moved fast in an economic congress. I want to know what your going to do to get Congress to move fast on environment?"

JM-I disagreed strongly with Bush on this issue. The best solution on nuclear power. Nuclear power is safe and clean. It creates 100ks of jobs. the french do it. BO opposed that. We can do that because we're the best innovators.

BO-This is one of the biggest challenges of our times. It is absolutely critical. If we create a new energy economy. We could easily create 5 mil news jobs in the same way computers did. It takes an investment in the same way the internet was created by gov't scientists. I've called for investments in solar, wind, thermal and nuclear. JM and I agree on something. The big problem in D.C. is that for 30 years no one did anything. For 26 years he didn't do anything. He voted against alternative energy [a whole lot]. We can't drill our way out of the problem. And we can't burn more fossil fuels in response to global warming.

TB should we fund a manhattan project for this or something like silicon valley?

JM-I think straight R&D by the gov't is appropriate. Oil drilling now is vital so we can bridge the gap between imported oil and it will reduce the price of oil because when there is more supply out there the price goes down.


Selling health care in America has become a profitable industry. Do you believe health care is a commodity?

BO-it's breaking family budgets. If you have insurance you've seen your premiums go up. One of things I said from the start is that we have a moral imperiative to do something about this crisis. If you got hc already you can keep your plan. We will work with your employer to reduce your premium. If you don't have hc then you'll be able to buy the same pool of insurance that McCAin and I enjoy. JM has a different kind of approach. He is going to tax your hc employer benefits. One hand giveth and one hand taketh away. That is fundamentally the wrong way to go. The United States Chamber of Commerce said his plan will lead to the unraveling of the employer based HC system.

JM-co payments go up. Skyrocketing costs. And we need to do all of things to put health records online. But what is at stake here is a fundamental difference between the two. He talks about gov't this and that. He wants gov't to fine you if you don't provide insurance. I want to provide a transferable hc plan that you can transfer across state lines. If you put the tax on it and you add 5k do the math. 95% of american people will have increase funds to buy the insurance of your choice. The point is we got to give people the choice and not mandates. [you should have the freedom to screw your worker].

tb-is hc a privilege, right or responsibility.

JM-it's a responsibility. but gov't mandates I am nervous about. BO has never mentioned the fine.

BO-let's talk. .it's a right. In a country like ours people shouldn't go bankrupt over medical coverage. Number 1 if you got a plan you like you can keep it. There is no mandate. Small business do not have a mandate. I am giving them a tax credit. You are going to have to make sure your child has hc. kids are cheap to insure. He voted against SCHIP that is responsible for making sure kids have Hc now. Mandates. It's is absolutely true that our gov't has to crack down on insurance companies. And you know about this state by state shopping idea? Ins. Cos will find a state that has loose laws. He believes in deregulation in every circumstance.

#4a

BO-Can I respond to that?

TB no-Would you give Congress a date certain to reform soc sec and medicare in two years?

BO-we're going to have to take on entitlements. I can't guarantee I'd do it in two years. But maybe in the first term.

But the straight talk express got derailed there. I want to provide a tax cut for 95% of Americans. A small percentage of businesses make over 200k a year. And I will provide a tax credit for small businesses can't afford insurance. So I will help them. McCain want's to give a 200 billion tax cut to CEOs and corporations. If we get our tax policies right so it's good for the middle class..then we'll be in the position to deal with health care.

JM-I'll answer the question. It's not that hard to fix soc security. We know what the problems are. We got to sit down across the table. Vote up or down..to many special interests.

Now back on this tax. BO has voted 94 times to increase your taxes or against tax cuts. I fought higher taxes. I fought higher spending.

#3

Since WW2 we haven't had to sacrifice. What sacrifice would you ask us to make to get out of this morass we're in?

JM-I first proposed a long time to eliminate every agency that's not working. I know Defense spending isn't working. I believe we have to eliminate those earmarks. They will have to undergo the same scrutiny. I recommend a spending freeze. [holy shit he wants to shut down government again].

we can't do this behind closed doors. I want to go back. We can attack health care and energy at the same time. I'm not going to tell you're going to have to wait.

BO- You know a lot of you remember 9/11 and how all of the country and make enormous changes and to make us a better country. bush did some smart things at the outset. He said though...go out and shop. That's not the kind of call to service. The American people are hungry for the kind of leadership. There is going to be the need for each one of us to rethink how we use energy. We need to tell those oil companies that all those acres they've granted to start using those. But we need to give ncentives to you the consumer. To buy fuel efficient cars...appliances. I think the young are especially interested. I want to increase the peac corps and domestic peace corps.

TB-Bush said Wall Street got drunk how would you break those bad habits of too much debt?

BO-I think it starts with D.C. If we're running up these debts people think that there is easy money out there. It's starts at spending. But also revenue side. Earmarks account for 18 billion of our budgets. When he's propose giving your average ceo 700K in tax breaks, that's not asking for someone to contribute.

I disagree with the across the board spending freeze. that's a hatchet and I want to use a scalpel.

JM-Nailing down BO's tax proposals is like nailing jello to a wall. There's been like 6 plans. BO's secret is that you don't know, is that his tax increases will raise taxes on 50% of small businesses. Lets not raise anyone's taxes. I am in favor leaving the tax rates alone. There will a 5K tax credit for insurance. Let's not raise anyone's taxes.

#2

How can we trust either of you with our money when both parties got us into this global economic crisis?

BO-If less money is coming in you do less. You are right there is enough blame to go around. But let's remember some history. When G Dub came into office we had a surplus. We doubled our debt. While it's true no one is completely innocent, but we have had the biggest increases in history and JM voted for 4 out 5 of those budgets.

You may have seen your premiums going up. And we are sending money overseas. We also got to make spending cuts. I am cutting more than I'm spending. It will be a net spending cut.

JM-Well Theresa. The system in D.C. is broken. I have been a consistent reformer. I've reached across the aisle. I've worked with [crazy] Joe LIEberman. Let's look at our records and not just rhetoric. Go to some of the watchdog organizations that watch us. BO has the most liberal big spending record. BO is proposing 860 billion in new spending. He voted for every increase in spending while we were working on eliminating pork. Do we need to spend money for projectors? [huh?]. We are looking for the kind of reforms that get our economy moving again. Energy independence is one way to do that. I know how to fix our economy.

TB-there are new economic realities. What are your priorities?

JM-Health, entitlement, energy-we can all three at the same time.

We are going to have to sit down between Rethug and Democrat. I remember Reagan and Tip O'Neal. [yeah because you're really old]. We can do all of this as Americans. Health care everyone is struggling. That's the next issue. We can do them all at once.


BO-We're going to have to prioritize- Energy we have to deal with today. You are paying 3.80 in Nashville. It's important to our security. I've called for 15 billion a year investment. 10 years we could be free from Mid East oil. Health care is priority #2. It's bad for families. And 3 Education.

One more thing looking through records. I want to go through line by line and eliminate programs that don't work. We also have to look at where are taxes are going. He wants to give corporations tax breaks taking money out of the system and not working for you.

2nd Presidential Debate Part 1

It's a townhall format. TB = Tom Brokaw moderator. BO = Barack Obama and JM = John McCain.


TB Since you last met at Ole Miss the world has changed. The economy. BO is going first.

Allen Schaefer- "What's the fastest way to bail out the people at the bottom?

BO- worst crisis since Great Depression. You are worried about sending kids to college. it's a failure of policies of last 8 years. Deregulation hasn't worked out that way. Step one make sure the package passed last week works properly. Perform oversight. AIG went on a 400K junket after bailout. Middle Class needs a rescue package. It means help for homeowners...loan projects...fix healthcare...fix energy. You need some working for you and not just those with lobbyists.

JM-you go to the heart of Americans' worries tonight. My plan has to do with energy independence. We have to keep taxes low. Lets not raise them on anybody. You know we laid a 10 trillion debt to our kids? I think this has become so severe we have to do something about home values. As President I would order treasury sec. buy up those mortgages.

How do you pay for this without revenues John?-me

TB - obviously Paulson's powers are expanded who would put there McCain?

JM-not you Tom. I think the first criteria is someone Americans ID with. Meg Whitman E Bay. The point is somoene that inspires trust and confidence. We don't have trust and confidence in our institutions.

BO-Warren Buffet is a good choice. The key is making sure that the next Treas. Sec doesn't just help those at the top and hope it trickles down. Part of the problem is for many of you wages have flat lined. It's getting harder to save. I want to provide a tax cut to 95% of Americans. Sen. McCain is right about stablizing housing prices but wages are also a priority.

TB- Oliver Clark "Well through this crisis most have had a difficult time. What started this?"

JM-Bailout is the right word. One of the real catalysts..really the match is Freddie Mae and Mac. They are the ones with the encouragement of Obamam's cronies and friends. We tried to stop that greed and excess. Meanwhile some Dems and members of Congress. Meanwhile they were getting all kinds of campaign contributions. BO got the most of their lobby money.

The bailout is not enough. Fanny Mae was the catalyst.

BO-As a pratical matter...the credit market has frozen up. And companies use that for payroll. We shouldn't have been here in the first. I have to correct McCain's history.

It was about the deregulation of the system. I said two years we have a subprime lending crisis. I wrote letters to Paulson and Bernake and nothing happened. With respect to Fannie Mae. I never promoted Fannie Mae. In fact McCain's campaign advisor is a lobbyist for Fannie Mae. This is the beginning of the process. And the next president has to make sure that you and not banks get bailed out.

TB- Are you saying the economy is going to get worse?

BO-I am confident about the American economy...but we still have an archaic 20th century regulatory powers in this modern financial environment.


JM-I think if we get rid of the special interest. I'd like you to see a letter I wrote...Senator Obama's name is not on that letter. America's economy is the best exporters. Best workers in the world. We got to give them the chance to do their best again.

Tune in for live debate blogging tonight.

McCain is promising to take the gloves the off. So far that means lying about your opponent with abandon and inciting lynch mobs.

Think of this as watching an old politician strangle his political career.

Thank Odin is Friday! It's an open thread ya'll.

Well everyone in my office is talking about last night's debate. That in itself is pretty cool.

Feel free to write about whatever you feel like here.

Debate prediction...

If she talks in coherent sentences she'll be fine. She's really only aiming for a draw here with Biden I imagine.

Honestly, I think the odds of that happening are mediocre at best. Therefore I predict Palin loss and endless replays of snippets of her sounding as dumb as she did with Katie Couric will be on the news.

Let's hope for comedy gold tonight.

A Conservative is shocked by the meanness and nastiness of her fellow Conservatives...

Poor little Kathleen Parker of the National Review Online got a taste of the bile she's been spewing over the years...and imagine that...she doesn't like it.

I am a traitor and an idiot. Also, my mother should have aborted me and left me in a dumpster, but since she didn't, I should "off" myself.

Shocker.

It seems Miss Parker paid a visit to realtyville and discovered that Sarah Palin wasn't really qualified to be VP.

"Those are a few nuggets randomly selected from thousands of e-mails written in response to my column suggesting that Sarah Palin is out of her league and should step down.

Well I could have warned her. In my experience, Conservatives don't like anything that smacks of reality. The inevitable and typical Conservative back lash formed. Miss Parker describes the reaction:

"After 20 years of column writing, I'm familiar with angry mail. But the past few days have produced responses of a different order. Not just angry, but vicious and threatening.

Conservative gets taste of Conservatism

Wow she objects to being called a traitor.

That's rich considering she questioned whether Obama was a real full blooded American.

Traitor. Abortion candidate. Welcome to the world of having a difference of opinion with a Conservative Miss Parker.